Christians are like a council of frogs in a marsh or a synod of worms on a dunghill, croaking and squeaking, "For our sakes was the world created."
Celsus, around the 2nd century C.E.
Monday, June 26, 2006
Quote of the Day
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16 comments:
I think I prefer the supposed aboriginal belief quoted in the film "Crocodille Dundee", to the effect that "people who argue about who owns the land are like fleas arguing about who owns the dog."
That paints a wonderful picture.
I'm picturing them in funny little hats while they do it.
Celsus, the God of Athiests.
Celsus on Jesus:
"Jesus had come from a village in Judea, and was the son of a poor Jewess who gained her living by the work of her own hands. His mother had been turned out of doors by her husband, who was a carpenter by trade, on being convicted of adultery [with a soldier named Panthéra (i.32)]. Being thus driven away by her husband, and wandering about in disgrace, she gave birth to Jesus, a bastard. Jesus, on account of his poverty, was hired out to go to Egypt. While there he acquired certain (magical) powers which Egyptians pride themselves on possessing. He returned home highly elated at possessing these powers, and on the strength of them gave himself out to be a god."
I think this might be where the National Enquirer got its start.
This Celus guy seems to have his head screwed on right. Seems a much more plausable story than that christian bookee. I can also see the funny little hats Michelle:)
Stomp, you're kidding right? Celsus was writing about 150 years after Mary and Jesus were on earth. The only source for information on Mary is the bible itself. Believe what you want about the bible, but since its the only source for information on what would otherwise be an obscure pregnant Jewish woman, the only way Celsus could come up with his revised history would be if he revised it himself. Is lying in the service of your cause a worthy tactic? Do you not then become contemptable yourself? What faith can anyone place in what you are saying if you would employee these tactics?
Chris, how do you know the whole Bible isn't a lie?
The only reason we know what Celsus said is because an early Christian, Origin, wrote out most of it in his reply to Celsus' critisisms.
"Before replying to Celsus, it is necessary to admit that in the matter of history, however true it might be, it is often very difficult and sometimes quite impossible to establish its truth by evidence which shall be considered sufficient"
So, even in the 2nd and 3rd centuries, Christian scholars admitted there was little or no historical evidence for Jesus.
His argument then follows along the lines of: the story of Jesus is equally as likely as those of the pagan gods like Apollo, so therefore, if the Jesus story isn't true, neither are the Pagan ones.
Great argument. And this is what Christians believed only a few hundred years after the actual event.
What event, Simon? You just said you don't think Jesus existed!
Chris, lol, loved the National Enquirer comment.
"THE EVENT" I think that at some point there possibly was a dude who did some tricks, was a good salesman and finally got pinned to a big timber 't'. I just have certain issues with his dad being the MASTER OF ALL CREATION. I have talked my dad up to other people at times, but hey... I think this dude, who's name would fit right in on the mexican soccer team, set a good example. I truly believe that all salesmen should be pinned to a large timber 't' untill dead.
That's one way to look at it, Thomp!
..."supposed" event, then, Martin, you irritant.
lol..irritant, is that like a hemorrhoid?
Chris, you are making the common mistake of assuming that the only documents we have now are the only documents there has ever been. The world, unfortunately, just does not work like that.
For almost a thousand years the Catholic church was the sole arbiter of what was true and correct in most of the world, and they freely admit that many literary works were declared heretical and destroyed during that period (and their authors given that "convert or die" career opportunity). Virtually nothing that lies outside of Vatican doctrine survives from the period in question, and what does survive is often altered beyond recognition - just check the different versions Josephus' opinions on Jesus to see what I mean.
A writer putting quill to parchment 150 years after the alleged events is likely to have access to many sources - both written and oral - that are denied us due to the Catholic power grab and subsequent purging of any disagreement.
The fact that you don't know where Celsus drew his inspiration and information in no way proves that he made it up.
Celsus was just another nut job...like Jesus was.
yeah right.
Yes, I agree with your assertion that the Catholic Church did engage in this activity. There is no question about it. The field of Textual Criticim helps us to understand what the original authors said and what they had access to in developing their theologies, or in the case of Celsus, his anti-theological positions.
It is unlikely that Celsus had any additional information on Mary because really there are few references in the world history of even Jesus himself, the most famous and contraversial man that ever walked the earth.
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