Danny2 has been having a debate with me regarding the reasons why his god created us, here, in the comments of a previous post. I say, if his god created us knowing we'd go wrong, surely it is his god's fault, and not ours. If I design a car knowing the wheels will fall off when you drive it, surely I'm responsible.
Danny2 also says his god gives us freewill, so we can chose whether to follow his god or not. The alternative is to burn in hell's fire for all eternity. To me, this seems like being offered a menu at a restaurant which lists two meals: Your favourite meal, cooked by the greatest cook that ever lived OR rotten salmon, uncooked, infested with ecoli, with a sulphuric acid sauce, with side order of hemlock. Is that really a choice?
Wednesday, May 31, 2006
Whose Fault Is Sin?
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51 comments:
I'd call it limited view :)
again simon, i really appreciate the courtesy you've shown as you have discussed this with me.
i would warn, however, that while analogies are helpful in illustration...they are dangerous if we use them to formulate our theology (or atheology) or philosophy.
rather than scrambling for the right illustration--i would again ask you to consider two thoughts:
1. have you sinned? and each time you've sinned, can you really say it was anyone else's fault? can you truly blame another person for your violation of God's standards, or must you admit that you willfully violated those standards?
(within this, hell then is not a threat or an ultimatum. since God is just and holy and pure, He must respond to sin. He would be an evil God if He simply winked at sin, or ignored it. Hell is a necessary response to sin.)
2. knowing you have sinned, and knowing the gracious offer of Jesus Christ's death on the cross to pay the penalty of your sin and to receive the right standing before God that Jesus had, what prevents you from turning from your ways and trusting Christ alone for salvation?
to be honest with you simon, i've been in Christian circles for a long time, and every time i hear a person try to use an analogy (whether with a fellow Christian or non Christian) there is a sense of frustration. they all fall short...yet we all find ourselves using them in effort to help explain things.
i'm sure your feel illustrations i have used are flawed too...and i'm sure they are.
thanks again for your respect and kindness.
If there is a god who considers sharing intimacy with someone you love but aren't married to, or having a sexual preference you were born with, or wearing a condom to protect your husband from the HIV you got from a transfusion, are sins punishable by eternal torment (and they all are to one christian or another)... then that god can kiss my ass, and i'll see him in hell.
I'd rather burn than lower my standards to his.
Danny, I don't believe your Jesus or your god existed, for one second. The story is totally flawed, antiquated, out-dated, and covered in the finger-prints of mankind's manufacture. I think anyone who has a clear overview of mankind's history can see other versions of the Jesus myth, where the sacrificed one goes by other names.
The concept of god or gods is old. It belongs to a time when man was superstitious. When people believed a solar eclipse was a dark spirit who needed chasing away by rattling pots and pans.
Every practical scientific discovery slices away another part of Christianity, leaving Christians with less shadows to hide in.
Yet you persist. You bluff and twist and squirm, as much to enable your own comfort as the comfort of your fellow believers.
But underneath there is nothing but a powerful story. Popular, like Harry Potter is popular today. Powerful because it offers false promises to ease the fears of naked apes.
Whatever gets you through the night, bud.
i'd love to hear some specifics some time, simon.
science that slices away at christianity?
as for "the story." have you looked at the bibliographic standard? do you realize the current Bible we have today is more accurate to the New Testament recorded in first century? (a new dating system created by the arrival of this so called "mythical character." that these men testified during a time when eyewitnesses were alive and could have refuted false claims, yet there is silence.
as for comfort? aren't you chosing the more comfortable route....to believe your sinful actions were merely animal instincts accountable to no one rather than believing you will have to answer before God for your sin?
moonflake,
who in the world has ever told you that wearing a condom to protect your husband from AIDS received from a transfusion is sin?
i apologize if they did. i can find nothing in Scripture at all that validates the view that doing so would violate the character and nature of God.
i truly regret any distortion of the Biblical truth you have observed that makes seeing the Biblical truth more complicated.
only if the hemlock is in season
Danny asked: "who in the world has ever told you that wearing a condom to protect your husband from AIDS received from a transfusion is sin?"
This guy for starters.
A couple points...
First... the idea of the original sin, like many of the other STORIES in the bible share a cross cultural origin. Many of the parables and fables of the bible were borrowed from other cultures (much like most Christian holidays, but that's another discussion entirely.) The punishment Adam and Eve suffered at the hands of your god for giving people choice is a direct rip off of that Prometheus suffered for giving man fire.
And, considering sin. If your God is so perfect, and so infallible, why does he need our constant approval and devotion. This bears on this conversation regarding choice in that, if your god wasn't so needy - - he would have never given us the option of choosing to sin.
I'm with moonflake on this - If acceptance into your heaven is predicated on some silly moral rules written by other men - I'll take the lake of fire.
No Christian can speak on the feee will issue without sounding like a complete idiot.
moonflake and american in melbourne,
being a protestant, you shoud not find it surprising to hear me say that i find no biblical warrant to refer to the pope as an office of the church. i do not accept the catholic gospel to be the true biblical gospel and i am sorry for things he has said that are contrary to the Bible and have confused people from the real truth of Scripture. (incidently, i have no idea if he said the use of a condom was sin...)
but the call is not for people to consider the claims of other men, but the claims of God in His Word, and to respond about them. unfortunately, we will not be able to use other people as an excuse for our disobedience before God.
dr zombie,
the celebration of Christmas has nothing to do with salvation. the Bible does not call us that we must celebrate the birth of Jesus and frankly, the date of December 25 was probably not the day of His birth. therefore, the fact that christians may call december 25 "Christmas" does not effect the gospel message at all.
prometheus (the story) came well after the established ancient jewish doctrine (as recorded by Moses well before the establishment of the greek empire) or original sin. you may want to reconsider which came first.
God doesn't need anyone's approval or affection. He is doing just fine right now without the affection or worship of most...yet, it is us who need to consider how we will fare without Him...not nearly as well.
scribe,
i would like to point out i have never once used the statement "free will."
i believe adam and eve were the only one's created with a free will. they chose sin, and that sin has now made all humans sinners...and our status as sinners is now why we sin.
left to myself, i will always choose sin. you can debate, scream, claim that isn't fair and struggle to wrap your mind around it (for it is a terribly difficult concept to understand) but here is where the rubber meets the road again:
have you ever sinned? and if so, have you ever sinned not wanting to, but were forced to? you can try to look around and blame others (including God), but that is ignoring the issue in your heart. can you really say that when you have sinned it wasn't exactly what you wanted to do?
and with that, what do you do with your sin? if God could wink at it or ignore it, He would be an evil God. therefore, He must respond with punishment. but He has offered forgiveness through the death, burial and resurrection. it is yours for the taking if you turn from your sin and trust Christ alone for that salvation.
Hemlock sounds easier to swallow than contradiction. Atheism is not the comfortable option, but it is, unfortunately, the only realistic option. You can go on and on with profound statements and eye witnesses, but you just sound desperate to me...
I can tell you that sinning is difficult however.
In order to sin, you must believe that doing something specific is actually a sin. Otherwise it is only the belief of others that you actually have sinned.
You know in some other scenario what is sin, might not be - in some other culture sin might be a virtue - it's a very strong but fragile word.
I personally believe I'm not believer enough to tell people if they've sinned or not - or even ask that question as such.
:)
The other thing that I can tell you is that I'm pretty damn drunk while writing this.
Have fun with this topic! I think it'll last for a good while and prove nothing in the end. :D
Life is individual. And I'm sorry about my drunken opinions.
And, strangely, teemu has made more sense than anyone!
Must be time to hit the bottle...
danny, I presume you are a young earther, as you seem to read the Adam and Eve story literally. Or am I wrong?
Teemu, pass some of that here, man!
Danny, well said.
danny2, with so many flavors of christianity to choose from, how do you know the one you have chosen is right? Your ignorance on the condom issue only goes to show that whatever choice you have made, it's not an educated one. Have you ever considered that if you've chosen the wrong brand of christianity, you may be just as damned as the atheists?
I notice you haven't denied that premarital sex or homosexuality are sins according to your faith. You can't argue that those aren't in the bible.
moonflake,
my faith is in God, not in man. therefore, i do not believe salvation is found in fraternity with a specific denomination or church, but in individual faith in the person and work of Jesus Christ. therefore, i don't worry about "the different brands of Christianity," but instead, look to the Bible for what God says to us.
as for homosexuality and premarital sex...this also intersects with teemu's comments. it is the condition of the heart that matters when regarding sin.
i can give you a gift of $500 just to be nice. there is nothing wrong with that. i can give a judge, during a case involving me, a gift of $500 and that is called bribery. the actions are the same...the motives are not.
so why is homosexuality or sex before marriage considered sin by God? because the purpose of human intimacy is to reflect that intimacy between God and man is possible (as described in ephesians 5). that intimacy between God and man can only come through a covenant relationship however (my dependance upon him that He is just to forgive my sin because of Jesus death and resurrection). therefore, any sexual activity outside of that covenant relationship between man and wife (marriage) sends a contrary message about God and His promises. therfore, He regards those things as sin.
i was hesitant to address this, because often people in the church regard sexual sin as if it is more condemning than other sin...but the bottom line is, my tendancy toward pride is just as much a violation of God's character as homosexuality, or sex outside of marriage.
if you are homosexual or sleeping with your girlfriend you are sinning before God. but you are also doing that when you are proud, blaspheming, angry at others, jealous, stealing or a multitude of actions (or lack of actions) that are contrary to the will of God.
you could quibble over whether you consider a specific action to be sin or not...and quite honestly, some are up for debate. however, if you search your heart, you will see there is plenty of evidence in other areas that you have sinned before God.
He offers forgiveness, but you must see and repent from that sin and trust Him alone for salvation.
"my faith is in God, not in man"
"look to the Bible for what God says to us."
danny2, these ideas are mutually exclusive. The bible (whether inspired by god or not) was written by men, edited by men, translated multiple times by men, and in reading it you, a man, are choosing to interpret it using your fleshy man brain. Basing your idea of a sin on the bible is putting your faith in man. It's putting your faith in the fact that through all the writing, editing, chopping, changing, translating and interpreting, somehow the real intention of god got through.
Here's an example: in Leviticus, the bible only mentions homosexuality as men having sex with men. No women are mentioned. Does that mean lesbians are okay? If God meant to say 'oh, lesbians too', why didn't he? Maybe he actually thinks lesbians are just fine, and it's written that way because that's how he meant it. How do you know the interpretation you've made is the right one? And if you think he said men in Leviticus but also meant women, don't you think maybe in Ephesians when he says marriage is between man and women, he really meant to also say man and man, or woman and woman? How do you know?
In the end i choose to throw it all out the window and go through life with only one goal: do unto others as you would have them do unto you. If, after a life lived to that ideal, god chooses to send me to hell for some arbitrary proviso he failed to communicate clearly, then i'd rather go to hell.
Is Gay Pride a double sin?
No, it's being...
sar·don·ic ( P ) Pronunciation Key (sär-dnk)
adj.
Scornfully or cynically mocking.
moonflake,
even if you decide that "do unto others as they do unto you" is the only standard to live by...
i assume you still see the necessity for a government to enforce laws when others break this standard (murder, theft, perjury).
if honest, i assume you will confess that you have not always lived according to your own standard, but at times have acted in your own interest and not always in the interest of others...
therefore, how should a holy righteous God respond to you when you haven't even lived up to your own moral code? should He just dismiss it?
you can say that is the ideal you are living under, but you have to admit, you still fail to always observe that ideal, right?
as a father of toddlers, it is ridiculous to believe that i must think of every possible scenario where my children could do something wrong and make rules accordingly. sitting in my office, i realize i have never told my three year old daughter not to stick a knife in the chest of my eight month old...
does this mean it would be my fault if she did that? or is it simply reasonable that knowing she is not to play with knives and she is not to be mean to her sister, that it is assumed that not stabbing her fits under those criteria.
therefore, when the Bible says in countless places that homosexuality is wrong, and in leviticus illustrates this with men and men (yet in romans explains, just in case people weren't sure, that it does include men with men and women with women), is it really reasonable to quibble over minutae or look for loop holes to claim God wasn't clear enough?
as for the Scriptures. your arguments are terribly antiquated and have been shown to be faulty. again, the bibliographic standard (scientific study of ancient documentation) shows that the same Bible we have today is the same Bible that from the first century. as for translations...any reliable translation was taken from the original languages, not from another. therefore, a quality modern translation (like the english standard version) is not a decendant of hebrew and greek translated to latin, translated to german, translated to olde english, translated to modern english...but instead is a translation into english from the hebrew and greek.
of course, with any translation there is not perfection. however, scholars (christian and non christian alike) generally agree that the descrepancies are over generally small words and issues that do not effect the message of the Bible.
and the consistent message of the Bible (that man has sinned, yet God offers forgiveness of sin through His actions to man if man will simply repent of his sin and place His trust in those actions of Jesus Christ) is easily preserved through translation and interpretation.
Big ups to a drunken Teemu!
Danny, doesn't the bible say if someone doesn't believe in your god and tries to persuade you to believe in their god your put them to death? I think it's in the OT somewhere.
Don't forget, danny2, unlike you God is omnipotent and does know how, where and why you are going to sin. If you knew your toddler was going to stab someone, and you could stop it from happening, wouldn't you? Or would you stand aside and say to yourself, she has free choice, i already told her not to play with knives, let her kill someone and learn a lesson. Because that's the choice God makes, every day, for everyone in the world.
That is not a god i'm interested in worshipping, regardless of how he tries to scare me into it.
moonflake,
i don't believe for a minute you find it easier to worship a god who gave you no choice and forced you to do everything, including force you not to sin...
bottom line:
you CHOOSE to sin (as do i).
a holy righteous God must punish sin.
but being a merciful God, He has offered His Son to pay the penalty for our sin if we will repent of our sin and trust in Him for salvation.
Why do you chose to sin, Danny?
because i often tend to be selfish and arrogant.
Well, that's honesty for you.
Why are you selfish and arrogant, do you think, Danny?
i am selfish and arrogant because i am a sinner.
God created Adam and Eve in perfection (morally) but also with a capacity of choice. they chose to doubt God (His promise and command in the garden) and humanity has dealt with that sin. i inherited the inclination to doubt the promises of God as well.
you've been trying to classify sin as trite little events or actions in a person's life. the Bible speaks of them as things much deeper than you describe. every sin is a doubt of God's Word. when i lust, i doubt that true joy can be found in a relationship with my wife alone. when i lie, i doubt God that my integrity is more valuable than that which i lie for. yet, the Bible speaks the lie goes even deeper. not only am i doubting God about secondary promises (joy in faithfulness and honesty), I'm doubting God about intimacy with Him. i am doubting a pure joy i can have in relating with God will far exceed any "joy" i may feel i acheive in my sin.
that's the bottom line. you don't believe that closeness with God can bring you more joy than your rebellion. i know it brings more joy, but at times (when i sin) i have crept back into doubt.
now you may choose to try to blame God for this, claiming that it is His fault that He created beings with a capacity to doubt Him. but then you ignore the beauty of faith. faith is me getting out of the way, not trying to take any credit for myself, and allowing Him to receive full glory. faith is looking at a situation and knowing i am desperately lost and clinging to Him alone for salvation. i guarantee if man were not given this capacity for faith (which must have with it a capacity for choice) you would still find yourself angry at God. you would be bitter that you have no choice!
simon, some of your posts are disturbingly blasphemous (i know, you take that as a compliment). however, consider what has happened here.
have you seen "liar, liar?" there is a scene where jim carey's character is not able to tell a lie. he tries and tries (even by writing) and yet it is not physically possible for him. would you really find yourself pleased if you sat at your keyboard and could not physically generate blasphemy on your keyboard? do you really believe you would then worship God for all He is? you wouldn't. you'd be angry.
and more importantly, God would not be ultimately glorified by such a model.
you may feel pressure from your readers to generate blasphemous posts. while offensive, you wit is clearly visible and your intellect is obviously strong. maybe therefore, you feel a pressure from yourself to generate posts to continue in the pattern you have set. you can claim you have no choice, but you know you do. you've wanted to post each of these articles.
again, that's where the rubber meets the road. i sin because i am a sinner. i am a sinner because adam and eve sinned. yet, i stand before God responsible for my actions.
i'd be burning in hell if that were the end.
however, God graciously offers His Son as the payment for my sin. only through turning from my sin and trusting in Christ for my salvation can i then follow after God and experience that relationship that is possible. only then can i see that His promises are true, that there is more joy in Him than in all else.
i am selfish and arrogant because i am a sinner.
So you chose to be a sinner because you're selfish and arrogant. But you chose to be selfish and arrogant because you're a sinner.
You see, this is where religious thinking shows it's absurdity. There's never any deeper answer (although you talk about things being deep). You just go round in a (shallow) circle.
It's the argument a parent uses on his 3 year old child - "Why? Because I told you so."
You haven't given me one good reason why your god supposedly created us.
would you really find yourself pleased if you sat at your keyboard and could not physically generate blasphemy on your keyboard?
I must admit, this is the good side of religion. I do enjoy it.
You do realise, of course, that your beliefs are blasphemous to other faiths - to Muslims, for example, your belief that Jesus is the son of your god is blasphemous.
How do you deal with your blasphemy, Danny?
I think what Danny says is very deep. You choose to see only the superficial side, Simon. But then, that's YOUR choice, choice given to you by God :)
You're not attacking my beliefs are you?!!!
See? There you go...assuming the wrong thing. I'm defending your right to choice ;)
Amen Danny Brother. I commend you for a fine witness. Their hearts are not inclined. It was all you could do.
I'm sure they hope they are right. It can't be that they don't care. They care about things, such as where their next meal is coming from or where they are going to sleep at night. That concern for food and shelter gives way to other cares when satisfied. Perhaps they are too concerned with the minutea of life to really take a look at it big picture and ask big things of themselves.
The one thing I've always noticed about godless people is that they pretend to not care. Yet their anger belies them. Of course they care. They are just angry at not having all the answers. They condemn you for looking for answers. They condemn you for finding answers they find unsatisfying. The bible says that God blinds the minds of the unbelievers. They are blinded.
But, we will know soon enough who is right between us. The bible is a book of prophecy and fullfillment. Not one prophecy has gone unfullfilled. God does what he says and so soon his name will be vindicated.
Keep on the watch Brother.
I don't pretend not to care, Chris. I care very much. Otherwise I wouldn't bother with this blog, would I?
You're inventing an image of me. You making me what you want me to be, because you can't deal with the idea that a reasonable person might reject your belief.
In fact, as me and Dabich were discussing, 66% of the world doesn't believe Jesus was the son of a god. So I'm certainly not in the minority.
Why do you talk about me being blinded and yet you are totally incapable of answer my simple questions.
I think that makes you look like a fake. But what do I know?
But DaBich believes Jesus IS the son of God :)
simon,
i think you are projecting your prejudices about christianity into what i am saying, and therefore finding contradictions where i did not state them.
i never said i choose to be a sinner. i AM a sinner. adam and eve had a choice and they chose sin. from then on, we have inherited that nature and therefore i sin because i'm a sinner (not vice versa).
you claim the bible's answers present no depth. i don't say this to offend, simon, but you have failed to give any deep answers yourself. you answer has classically been, "don't blame me, blame God." i fail to see how that is profoundly deep.
why do i answer my child, "because I said so." there are a couple of reason: a) i'm not obligated to give a lengthly answer nor my reasons. b) my intelligence and purposes go beyond my child's ability to comprehend...and it would therefore be rather unproductive to try to explain.
is this the real issue here? you refuse to believe that God could possibly transcend your intelligence and refuse to believe that a God exists that you can't completely comprehend? to believe in a God, you want Him to be just like you, but then He wouldn't be God then, would He?
i actually do appreciate your pursuit of objective truth, simon. the blasphemy discussion reveals that. you are right, one groups statements could be considered blasphemous by another group. but here is again why i go to the Bible. it is not up to me to decide which statements are blasphemous and which aren't, i look to the Word of God to see what He says, and that which presents Him in another light is considered blasphemy. is my life sometimes blasphemous to God? unfortunately, yes. but not because a jew or a muslim or a catholic is offended by what i say, but because my actions/words/thoughts present God in a way contrary to who He is as revealed by the Bible.
how do i deal with those situations? i repent and trust that Christ's work on the cross paid the penalty for my sin and that even my blasphemy was paid for by His righteous sacrifice.
how do you deal with your blasphemy?
Simon doesn't believe in God, therefore, it's not blasphemous to him.
Danny said: "i never said i choose to be a sinner."
Danny, it isn't my prejudice - scroll up the list of comments. You wrote:
bottom line:
you CHOOSE to sin (as do i).
I can only go on what you say. If you're going to change your mind about what you believe in the middle of a debate, it makes it hard to find the truth of what you are saying.
Just to re-cap:
You said to moonflake you chose to sin.
I asked why.
You didn't correct yourself, instead you replied because "you are selfish and arrogant".
I then asked why you are selfish and arrogant and you replied "because I sin".
Which is a totally circular argument - you are swimming around the surface in a circle and my guess is that this is because you are afraid to dive deep and look for the real reason you are "selfish and arrogant". (I'm not saying you are, by the way)
And, as I said to Dabich, I don't blame god because I don't believe in him. How can you suggest that? If I blamed a god I wouldn't be an atheist.
You see, an atheist like myself believes the buck stops with mankind.
But perhaps you could first clarify whether indeed you chose to sin.
Simon, you do indeed blame God, in your own way, when things don't suit you. You maybe do it sarcastically, but you do blame God.
Or Christians and their God.
Any way you'd like to put it.
But that's ok, HE loves you anyway :)
Danny2 ~ Simon has a valid point. First you say you choose to sin. Then you say you have no choice. Are you saying you RE a sinner because you have no choice? And that you choose to sin because you are only human and weak?
Splain?
(first off, something seems goofy with your word verification...i have to try about 3-4 times before it actually works...not sure if that's unique to your site, or a blogger problem over all)
you're not listening to me simon...
i don't become a sinner because i sin.
i sin because i am a sinner. (and was born that way, as we all are)
i am a sinnner because adam and eve sinned and passed that tendancy on to us.
however, for one who believes the buck stops with him...you have continued to ignore the fact that you have never sinned without desiring to do so.
i sin because i am a sinner (due to the sin nature passed down by adam and eve). however, NEVER ONCE have i sinned against my will, but have done what i wanted. therfore, i can not excuse my responsibility before God.
you claim you believe the buck stops with man, yet you want to deflect blame for sin to something else...although you clearly believe there should be a universal morality...for you believe war is wrong.
you claim that i refuse to plunge into the deeper things, but yet you seem to choose to avoid your conscience at all costs. are you willing to look inside of yourself. have you sinned? have you violated the standards of God? what are you going to do with that?
Don't you think it's a bit absurd to accuse an atheist of blaming god, dabich. I would have thought it obvious to anyone, that is the one thing an atheist doesn't do.
I certainly don't blame Christians for anything. I might Christians for believing in irrational fairytales, but I don't think they are any more or less responsible for our problems than anyone else.
I know other atheists blame organised religion for various attrocities - I don't. I'm pretty sure you won't find me saying anything like that here.
Danny, I'm confused. You don't chose to be a sinner, but you chose to sin?
I don't get it. That doesn't seem to make sense.
Let's say, for example, you managed to go a whole year without sinning once - would you still be a sinner?
danny: are you willing to look inside of yourself. have you sinned? have you violated the standards of God?<
All this is bullshit to me, why would I be asking myself those questions?
The whole idea of sin is a cop-out. You don't really want to know what human behaviour is really about - so you buy into this fairytale, childish nonsense.
If you really wanted to investigate human behaviour, your wouldn't be peddling this shallow, circular "I sin because I'm a sinner because I sin.... ".
Religious words sound powerful without actually really saying anything.
Whereas when you study the Universe in a intelligent way, things get more complex the more you know about them.
Compounds leads to elements leads to atoms leads to subatomic leads to quantumn mechanics leads to quarks and anti-quarks... and it keeps going. The deeper we look the more complexity we find.
That's what you do when you dive in.
Compare that to your "I chose to sin because I'm selfish and arrogant because I chose to sin because I'm selfish and arrogant... etc"
To be honest, you sound like a record that's got stuck.
What I'm interested in is what does it really mean to be selfish? and what makes us selfish?
Ever hear of human nature?
Are they a 60s beat combo?
More like punk rock.
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